Help, terrible beating noise

I’m curious, when you dissassembled the rails, did it appear that there was any grease in them from the factory? Or just the shipping oil from the rail manufacturer?

I’m building a Voron, so I’ve learned a lot about linear rails, and the fact that when you recieve a new one, you must dissassemble it and pack it with the proper lube prior to installing. I’m wondering if Snapmaker just took them out of the package and bolted them on.

My printer’s rails were bone dry. I injected lube into each carriage with a syrynge and I hope that was enough!

My splints were dry, I couldn’t find any grease.

From what it looks like, this is the first Snapmaker that uses linear rails. I’m wondering if they didn’t completely research them and have now missed a very important step in preparing these rails prior to installation. If they all went out with only manufacturers shipping oil in them, then there are a lot of ticking timebombs out there. Especially since they have cranked the speeds on them.

(for english, please scroll down)
Dann bin ich mal so nett und antworte ebenfalls zweisprachig: Das mit der ab Werk fehlerhaften Schmierung war das, was ich wegen der immer wieder auftretenden Layer Shifts vermutet habe. Entweder die Einkäufer von Snapmaker haben mangels Erfahrung mit diesen Führungen (auf die auch die falsche Schmieranleitung im Handbuch hindeutet) den Text “einsatzbereit vorgeschmiert” vergessen oder es gibt ein Problem mit der Dosierung.

Ich hoffe sehr darauf, daß die von Riskey erwähnte verbesserte Schmieranleitung bald kommt (sonst messe ich die Führungen aus und klappere die Schmieranleitungen anderer Linearführungen in derselben Größe ab) - und dann kriegt mein J1 nach der Ankunft als allererstes eine anständige Fettfüllung.


I’ll be so kind and answer in two languages as well: The incorrect lubrication at the factory was what I suspected because of the recurring layer shifts. Either the Snapmaker buyers forgot the text “pre-lubricated, ready for use” due to a lack of experience with these linear guides (which might also be indicated by the incorrect lubrication instructions in the manual) or there is a problem with the dosage of the grease.

I very much hope that the improved lubrication instructions mentioned by Riskey will be available soon (otherwise I will measure the guides and check what other manufacturers tell about greasing similar sized ones) - and then the very first thing my J1 will get on arrival is a decent grease filling.

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My colleague has done some updates and modification to the original content (see Lubricate the Axes in this page), while the more detailed (with pics) version will be completed in Feb. :blush:

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Thanks @Riskey for the update! I do have to admit though I am a little disappointed - the only obvious changes I could find so far are to wipe away old grease and to use lithium grease of unspecified consistency. The basic wrong way to grease these rails remains unchanged.

You see, the video i3sven embedded above (Snapmaker J1 linear lager X-Achse - YouTube) shows your linear guide slides have sealing lips on both sides - which is great during normal use since these lips keep any grease inside the linear guide and dirt outside.
But this also makes your whole greasing specification useless, since these sealing lips will stop any grease appiled onto the guide rail to get to where it is needed, i.e. into the inside of the slider.
Therefore, all the greasing suggested in the manual is about as fruitful as trying to feed a baby that keeps its lips pressed shut. The only thing you manage with this process is to smear grease onto places where it does not help.

Please take a look here: Search | Bosch Rexroth Germany

This link points you to the guide rail manuals from Bosch. They are available in several languages, even in Chinese. And then open the chapter “lubrication” (page 220 in the english version). Do not get confused about the length of the chapter - the Bosch manual is extremely detailed.
Apart from the general information there, please take a look at the pictures on where to lubricate (page 228 in the english version).

While most linear guide slides do not have that many greasing holes to select from, most have the greasing holes in the centre of each side of the slide. If you take a close look at time 1:54 of i3sven’s video, this also seems to apply to the slides used in the J1.

Therefore, for me it is quite clear on how to grease these rails correctly (taken from the Bosch catalogue and from the “General explanation → Lubrication” information from the IKO Nippon linear guide catalogue under IKO Technical Service Site :

  • use lithium soap base grease specified for linear guides only. Take care to use grease that is suitable for temperatures of at least 100°C (max. temperature of the bed - I do not know how warm the linear guides will get, but I do not expect them to get hotter than that. Snapmaker might want to confirm this by measuring the worst case temperature). Lubricant specified for higher temperatures should survive longer. Do not use lubricants with solid particles such as graphite or MoS2.
    The consistency class of the grease to be used is unclear as of now - Snapmaker should definitely test and include this in the manual.
  • using a syringe with a suitable adapter, insert grease into the lubrication opening of the linear rail slide until old grease is discharged. A shortened blunt syringe needle of about ∅1mm might do the trick (the larger the syringe, the easier the grease will come out). As noted above, lubricating the guide rail outside of the slide does not make sense.
    Snapmaker should point out the position of the lubrication openings of the slide in the manual.
    (Remark: I am using the simple-but-dirty greasing procedure suggested by IKO Nippon here since I suspect your rail manufacturer does not provide detailed greasing instructions.)
  • the slide will not run as smooth as it should since there is too much grease in there. To get rid of that, run in the slide by slowly moving it about 10…20 times back and forth until the slide runs smooth again. Excess grease will be expelled from the slide in this process.
  • Remove any grease that has come out of the slide and resume normal operation.

(edit: clarified, corrected typos and changed video time where greasing hole is seen)

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Update:

I got another answer from support today, unfortunately very unsatisfactory. It says that although it can be seen that the sleds are not running straight away, the noise cannot come from there.
Now I have linked the last videos again and hope to see them. Because there it is now clearly recognizable that the Y-axis is blocked.
Something has to happen now, I didn’t get the J1 to leave it as decoration.

I’m worried that when the masses get their printers, the ones who only want to hit the print button and watch it go, will have locked up rails before long. Question is - then what? If you send me a raiil, I’ll change it, but 90% of the people buying these new fancy machines (this and the X1) are not tinkerers. This could be a troubled launch in the near future if lots of these went out dry. Note - mine are properly lubed :slight_smile:

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Thanks very much for the detailed information! It is very helpful for us! :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

German:
Hallo zusammen,

ich wollte heute noch mal die Problematik, die bei mir auftauchte, aufgreifen und versuchen es zu erklären.

Nachdem ich die ganze Geschichte jetzt noch einmal durchgespielt habe, ist völlig klar, wie es dazu kommen konnte.

  1. Ich hatte bei meinem Druckauftrag eine innen Gehäusetemperatur von ca. 39 °C
  2. Die Schrittmotoren der beiden Achsen, haben durch die Druckleistung, eine erhöhte Temperatur gehabt, geschätzt 50°c +

Durch diese Temperaturen, hat sich die Brücke der X Achse so derart ausgedehnt, (Ausdehnungskoeffizient von Aluminium α (in 10-6/K) = 23,8) das es auf die Y-Lager Auswirkungen zufolge hatte, diese wurden dadurch innen mehr belastet.

Dazu kam dann noch der unglückliche Umstand, dass meine Lager und Schienen, nicht oder nur unzureichend gefettet wurden.

In meinem letzten Video kann man dann auch sehr schön die Auswirkungen sehen.

Dort ist das Lager absolut sauber und fettfrei, wodurch sich Fehler gut darstellen lassen.

Man kann gut erkenn, wie das Lager blockiert und sich in der senkrechte auch nicht von alleine löst, selbst mit Nachdruck nicht.

Auch ist eindeutig erkennbar, wie sich mikroskopisch kleine Metallsplitter, am Magneten vom Reinigen gesammelt haben.

Ich hoffe wirklich sehr, dass ich meinen J1, sehr bald wieder zusammenbauen und Inbetriebnehmen kann.

Auch wenn es nicht ganz optimal für mich und meinem J1 läuft, bin ich dennoch guter Hoffnung, dass ich ihn fehlerfrei zum Laufen bekomme.

Es ist einfach etwas unglücklich für mich gelaufen, aber ich denke, dass ich dazu beitragen kann, den J1 zu optimieren, um auch somit zukünftige J1 Nutzer davon profitieren können.


Englisch:
Hello, everyone,

Today I wanted to take up the problem that arose for me and try to explain it.

Now that I’ve replayed the whole story, it’s perfectly clear how this could have happened.

  1. During my print job, I had an internal housing temperature of approx. 39 °C
  2. The stepper motors of the two axes had an increased temperature, estimated at 50°C +, due to the pressure

Due to these temperatures, the X-axis bridge expanded to such an extent (coefficient of expansion of aluminum α (in 10-6/K) = 23.8) that it affected the Y-bearings, which were subjected to more internal stress .
Then there was the unfortunate circumstance that my bearings and rails were not or only insufficiently greased.

In my last video you can see the effects very nicely.

There, the bearing is absolutely clean and free of grease, which makes it easy to show errors.
You can clearly see how the bearing blocks and does not come loose on its own in the vertical direction, not even with emphasis.
It is also clearly recognizable how microscopically small metal splinters have collected on the magnet from cleaning.
I really really hope to get my J1 back together and running very soon.
Even if things aren’t going optimally for me and my J1, I’m still hopeful that I can get it to run correctly.
It was just a bit unfortunate for me, but I think I can contribute to optimizing the J1 so that future J1 users can benefit from it as well.

@Riskey
Englisch:
Here on the rail (y-axis on the right) I found very slight deformations on the running surface.
Exactly at the points the slide gets stuck.
Can you please pass this on to your colleagues?

This is the inside of the tread as I described above

Deutsch:
Hier auf der Schiene, (y-Achse rechts) habe ich ganz leichte Deformationen an der Lauffläche gefunden.
Genau an den Stellen bleibt der Schlitten hängen.
Kannst Du das bitte an Deine Kollegen weitergeben?

Das ist die Innenseite der Lauffläche, wie ich oben schon beschrieben habe.




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Got it. I’ve passed this to relevant colleagues. Hope your problem will be solved soon… :smiling_face_with_tear:

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German:
Hallo zusammen,
heute habe ich erfreuliche Neuigkeiten.
Ich habe die Schienen, mit 2000er-Schleifpapier an den kleinen Stellen leicht bearbeitet, es fühlte sich dann sehr gut an.
Danach habe ich hochwertige Keramikkugeln von einem Deutschen Hersteller, anstelle der Metallkugeln eingesetzt.
Jetzt sind beide Achsen mit Keramikkugeln ausgestattet.
Ich habe den J1 auch schon zusammengesetzt und habe nach der kompletten Kalibrierung, den ersten Druck gerade laufen.

Bis jetzt macht alles einen sauberen und ordentlichen Eindruck.
Gefühlt ist er sogar etwas leiser geworden.

Drückt mir bitte mal die Daumen!

Anbei habe ich Bilder und ein Video beigefügt.


Englisch:

Hello, everyone,
Today I have good news.
I lightly sanded the rails with 2000 grit sandpaper on the small spots, it then felt very good.
Then I used high-quality ceramic balls from a German manufacturer instead of the metal balls.
Now both axles are equipped with ceramic balls.
I have already assembled the J1 and after the complete calibration, I have the first print running.

So far everything looks clean and tidy.
It even feels a little quieter.

Please keep your fingers crossed for me!

I have attached pictures and a video.





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Herzlichen Glückwunsch! Wo hast Du die Kugeln denn her? Das Schmierfett kannte ich nicht, das werde ich mir wohl auch besorgen; das Datenblatt sieht wirklich gut aus, und man kriegt es in kleinen Gebinden.


Congratulations! Where did you get the bearing balls from? I did not know that type of grease, but I guess I will buy that one too - the technical specs look really good and you get it in smaller packages.

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Jo, danke…
Die Kugeln habe ich von:

Das fett macht einen guten Eindruck, ich hoffe das ich jetzt durch bin.
Es war aber nicht ganz billig.


Englisch:
Yeah thanks… I got the balls from: Miniatur-Rillenkugellager nach DIN 625 | Sturm Kugellager Shop The bold makes a good impression, I hope I’m through now. But it wasn’t cheap.

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Hallo, noch mals…
So, die ersten Ergebnisse habe ich fertig und die Ergebnisse sind echt gut geworden.
Bis auf, dass das weiße Filament wohl etwas Feuchtigkeit gezogen hat, ist es sehr gut geworden.
26 Minuten BENCHY im Dual Mod

Englisch:
Hello again…
So, I’ve finished the first results and the results have turned out really well.
Except for the fact that the white filament has probably drawn some moisture, it turned out very well.
26 minutes BENCHY. Dual Mod





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Hallo i3sven,
mit großem Interesse verfolge ich Deine Optimierungen an den Lagern.
Mein J1 ist zwar noch nicht bei mir eingetroffen, aber ich bin gerne vorbereitet. :wink:
Meinen Prusa Mini+ habe ich z.B. auch sofort auf Sinterlager umgebaut. Das war ebenfalls eine gute Entscheidung. Nun entnehme ich Deiner veröffentlichten Rechnung eine Stückzahl von 170 bzw. 150 Kermik-Kugeln. Wie viele Keramik-Kugeln hast Du Dir davon auf Lager gelegt bzw. wie viele benötigt man jeweils für den vollständigen Ersatz?

Gruß und noch einen schönen Sonntag

with great interest I follow your optimizations on the bearings.
My J1 has not yet arrived with me, but I’m happy to be prepared. :wink:
My Prusa Mini+, for example, I also immediately converted to sintered bearings. That was also a good decision. Now I take from your published calculation a number of pieces of 170 or 150 Kermik balls. How many ceramic balls do you have in stock and how many are needed for a complete replacement?

Greetings and have a nice Sunday

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Moin @Optimus ,
die Anzahl der Kugeln ist schon mit Reserve eingerechnet. Bei den Y-Lagern sind es 66x2 (links und rechts.
Bei den X-Lagern ca. 77x2, also linker und rechter Extruder.
So in etwa, ich habe auf alle Fälle genug über gehabt, falls eine verloren geht.

Englisch:
Hi,
the number of balls is already included in the reserve. The Y-bearings are 66x2 (left and right.
At the X-bearings ca. 77x2, i.e. left and right extruder.
Something like that, I’ve definitely had enough left over in case one gets lost.

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@i3sven

Vielen Dank für die schnell Rückmeldung.
WoW! Hätte nicht gedacht, dass die Lager so viele Kugeln enthalten. Dann ist Dein Vorrat ja ehr bescheiden und nicht üppig - wie dachte. :blush:

Gruß

Thank you for the quick response.

WoW! I didn’t think the bearings would contain so many balls. Then your stock is very modest and not lush - as I thought. :blush:

Greeting

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