I have them and runs fine, approx 0.7/0.8mm longer than stock but did not cause an issue for me
Thanks! I’ll go ahead and order some.
Sorry. missed your question. They work great. Make sure you get some TIM to coat them with. I use Kryonaut because that’s what I have in the drawer, but any should work.
Thanks! Ordered. Will match them with my all-filament compatible Nozzle X.
Just found the BIQU Heatbreak Titanium + Copper would that be suitable with the mod @Franky mentioned above?
Yes @pegak is perfectly suitable and works even better ( I’ve already tested it )
But there’s one that is even better and easier to make the mod, with the plus that there are a lot of possible providers and prices: the one initially meant for the ANYCUBIC family is perfectly compatible. These ones are the does I’ve ordered and tested:
These are two high quality ( and price ) providers, but you can find out a lot more like this:
All have a Titanium core and a copper exterior. The benefits of this model are: it offers more length so more surface to absorbe cooling and also it incorporates an adaptor for the PTFE tube, so it makes the mod easier and more effective. I’ve tested it extensively (finished already 2 KG) printing PLA+ at 220 degrees and works as a charm.
To adapt the size of the original:
We have to make different PTFE adaptor to fit in the new heartbreak, taking into account the internal fitting:
The PTFE tube is a bit longer than the difference, it’s 7 mm:
Then we can match the length very nicely (here Iǘe also included the copper-plated nozzle from Triangle LAbs, which also provide enhanced hardness to print abrasive filaments):
There are two major points to avoid problems:
- Improve the hotend cooling:
- Last, and not so evident, revise and tune your retraction distance and speed ! With this heatbreak , the hot zone is greatly reduced, which means that if you retract too much and too fast, you can get out of the hot zone and accumulate melted plastic there and finally clog the heartbreak as cools down slowly. I had a case with PLA where stated to use Luban retraction setting ( 5 mm) and get clogging after some time printing. When I reduced it to 2 mmm, it worked flawlessly! Anything higher than 2mm for that PLA filament, and clogging got back.
I hope this helps !!!
Is PTFE safe when printing high temperature materials with this mode?
Isn’t the point of the all-metal hot end to eliminate PTFE so you can print high temperatures and not worry about it? Or does this isolate the PTFE enough so it doesn’t reach those temps?
Let me try to clarify the matter. As I said in the first post, from 240 deg is where PTFE starts degradation. This temperature you will only get in the hotend side. A PTFE lined heatbreak like the one in the Snapmaker brings the PTFE tube right to inside the heatblock, where that temperature can be reached if you print at 250 deg , e.g… The meaning of the all-metal heatbreak is not having PTFE tube in the heatblock so you can reach temperatures higher than 240 degrees safely and without degradation. On the top of the heartbreak, the temperature should be a lot lower, 30-40 degrees, if you have the proper cooling and a good heatbreak, so it’s not a problem at all for the PTFE tube to be there (a lot of all metal hotends is included precisely that small recession on the top to facilitate the interface.
I hope this helps to clarify it
Not sure why everyone talks about 240 degrees for PTFE degradation. If you google around it is more like above 260 degrees, which is also my experience. I have printed a lot of PETG at temperatures 240-250 and and a roll of ABS (Fiberlogy) requiring 265-270 to have any layer strength at all, and only had to change one hotend after a year of printing. The decomposing causing dangerous fumes is closer to 300 degrees. Remember, most of your non stick frying pans are coated with the same stuff (and in direct contact with your food) and will surely be hotter than 240 degrees for almost any cooking.
What finally seemed to caused the PTFE tube to deform (and only at the bottom part inside the hotend) was a detailed slow print with lots of retractions with ABS at 265. The bigger prints with higher speeds (higher flow with few retractions) had no effect, likely due to the fact that the filament itself absorbs heat out of the PTFE tube too if it keeps flowing.
I’ve been looking for an all metal hot end for this particular roll of ABS too. But with my current experience, I don’t see the need unless I need to use more technical filaments requiring temps above 260. Also much cheaper to throw this particular roll of ABS away and stick to ABS filaments that work well below 260 degrees (there are plenty). For PETG at 230-240 there is really no need for an all metal hotend.
Hi, please feel free to print as much as you can and want with PTFE at temperatures higher than 240-250 degrees. I would just recommend to ensure that you get the proper information from Google, like from PTFE tube manufacturers:
Besides that, you can also read in the linked article, that all manufacturers add aditives as PTFE is just the main material ( same as not all Steel is the same kind ), and that aditives makes things very different. The example you put with the pans, that PTFE ( Usual commercial name is Teflon ) has a total different treatment and it also degrades and gets toxic if you warm it at very high temperature without putting anything in to absorb the heat I would suggest to also read what the manufacturers say:
Thanks Franky for the links, any additional information is always welcome.
I did not find anything new, though. The first link said “yes” up to 275-280 then “maybe” with “danger” starting at 300. This fully supports my understanding (although I pointed out that 265 seemed to be where Snapmaker tube started failing over time, having been fine with a lot of prints at 260).
Links in the story: The first gives an 404 error and the second talks about microparticles from filaments including a benign amount from PLA. The only fumes this article mentions is styrene from ABS, which I hope everyone is aware of and has proper ventilation when printing ABS or HIPS (or any filament for that matter). But it did not mention PTFE or Teflon. The third link (talking about birds) again said 500F (=260C), again in full agreement with what I said.
The second of your provided links again said you should not use the pan above 260. This is again consistent with what I said.
I’m not saying that you shouldn’t have proper ventilation or that you should be sniffing your snapmaker while it works. While the melting filaments are not all poisonous, they are not healthy to be sniffed either. Nor is smoke from the laser or dust from the CNC. Or acetone fumes. Or dust or fumes from working on practically anything; soldering, welding, sanding… These are all bigger health concerns than PTFE at 240-250, which the 3d print community seems to be most paranoid about. Which also seems to be a myth in the 3d printing world, because everything I’ve seen, your links included, warns of temperatures ABOVE 260 or more.
Safety precations are absolutely important and if someone wants to be on the safe side, that is good. But it is not OK to spread rumours and myths as if they were facts.
Instead, some common sense would be great, because any smoke or fine dust is equally bad. Keep the area ventilated, which solves a lot of the potential issues. Especially if you have limited space and use the SM in your living area. The fumes you get from burning glue when lasering plywood is very toxic too (even smoke from pure wood is bad for your health). Also consider that just a small lasering project will emit way more fumes than a tiny part of a tiny PTFE tube ever could.
Well, I got the Balitensen heat breaks but have switched back to original heat break with PTFE tube. I couldn’t get any prints working as the filament clogged up in. the Balitensen heat break, no matter what settings or filament I tried. Sooner or later the print would fail. Filament got stuck about 2mm in the lower part of the heat break. I suspect the inside isn’t polished as well as it should be. For now, I’ll stick to the standard heat break.
Dear @kaitzu , letś try to be as objective as possible. The first thing, about the temperature limits, with the two links I’ve posted, provided by PTFE tube manufacturer and Teflon association about safety:
From 1st link:
“Temp (Deg C)
Will it work?
Is it Safe?
We do not recommend printing with our TL tubing above this range. Our XS Series tubing has additives that will allow it to print at higher temperatures without deforming, but safety is still a concern due to PTFE offgassing.”
From second Link:
“Cookware Temperature, °C
*Chemours does not recommend using cookware coated with Teflon™ nonstick for broiling or cooking at temperatures typically used to broil food.”
So, it’s quite specific and consistent that putting PTFE at temperatures => 260 Deg C is NOT RECOMMENDED due to safety concerns.
So, where is the limit? In the first link, they are also relating that there is not a clear line:
"Mostly. There is evidence that even at 202, PTFE can be harmful to pet birds http://buffalobirdnerd.com/clients/8963/documents/Teflon.pdf"
And they state that at 250, these birds might be affected:
Temp (Deg C)
Will it work?
Is it Safe?
YES. You should be fine printing slightly higher temp materials such as PETG in this range. (As long as there are no pet birds in the house.)
So, that’s the hard limit I set for myself.
It’s on the safe side ? Absolutely, I prefer to be safe than sorry. I also apply what they say in the first link “Just because it works, doesn’t mean there aren’t precautions to be taken. If you use PTFE, or any polymer for that matter, inside the hot end or anywhere excessive temperatures may be experienced, you will potentially create harmful off-gassing. Safety first”
It’s a problem to print at higher Temperatures? It depends on a lot of factors, as you say: ventilation, the real PTFE material used for Snapmaker to make the hotend lining ( they state temperatures up to 275 Deg C), how high you go, for how long, filtering system, etc … Up to you to evaluate.
Long story short, thanks to this mod, you now have a choice and can decide/asses which is the risk you want to take, that is the beauty of sharing.
Hi again Franky!
It seems that we very much agree that PTFE is ok up to 260 degrees, which covers most filament types with the exception of some technical filaments and some ABS (Fiberlogy in my case). Above that temp, my experience was that the hotend starts to degrade, at least in certain situations, even if Snapmaker supports up to 275.
What I wanted to point out, was that there is no reason to be paranoid about PTFE at 240 or 250 degrees (as is the copy&pasted rumour on many forums, this one included), something that your own research again seems to agree with.
Again, it is good to be on the safe side, but then the first thing to worry about is having a separate space for the SM with good ventilation, because fumes from laser work are worse and the amount is many times greater. Likewise the fine wood dust from CNC work is very bad for lungs. Those who must use the Snapmaker in their living space (for anything else than PLA), are already exposing themselves (and family/pets, if they have any) to a variety of non-healthy fumes and particles. If I had to print at very high temperatures in my living space, I would be far more worried about fumes from the amount of plastic being constantly melted, than the amount from the lower part of a tiny 1 gram PTFE tube, that may be slowly degrading and causing fumes. Even if you avoid the PTFE risk, you don’t escape the other. If you have a separate ventilated space, then no more worries than when soldering, gluing, painting, doing acetone baths, welding… Not to mention waxing skis with fluor based waxes (which were far better than non-fluors, but so poisonous that they became banned recently).
I think it is great that you have found a working mod for an all metal hotend, especially as Snapmaker doesn’t provide one. As I mentioned at one point, I would be happy to try one myself if I could find one here in Europe (not keen on chinese shops due to customs hassle etc). On the other hand, for PETG and most ABS filaments, one is not really needed. Even technical filaments such as CPE (Fillamentum) and PCTG (Fiberlogy) where up to 270-275 degrees is recommended, have printed fine at around 255-260.
Anyway, I can’t see where we really disagree and if we still do, we have both made our points clear so let’s move forward. Have you printed any filament that required the high temperatures and if so, what are your experiences? Another potential issue with filaments requiring high temperatures, is that they also seem to require quite a hot bed, sometimes over 100 degrees. Any experience whether that is a real issue or not?
Related to the printing … 260-270 is the maximum I got until now ( ABS/ASA ). Iḿ now in the process to get better temperature stability and uniformity from the bed as it can vary up to 20 degrees across, not to mention the time it can take to go over 80 degrees … and the warping of the bed … still way to go to make it very repeatable … I’ll keep you posted
Is this still mod the best option/only option for printing filament with CF in it?
It’s the only option if you need to go to higher temperatures than 250 degrees and do not want to risk problems due to the PTFE tube. What happens is that CF filament ( other than CF PLA ) usually benefits from higher temperatures.
Hi guys! I followed along your discussion and I was able to get bi metal heatbreaks from Brozzl. The one for the creality cr-6se does completely fit my hotend nicely. My original Hotend is around 42.5mm long and my Brozzl one around 43mm.
Everything else is kinda plug and play. I used a small Capricorn liner on the top (it doesn’t go all the way down to the nozzle). I also used thermal grizzly (also put it on the heat cartridge- don’t know why Snapmaker hasn’t done it).
Now for the results I’m still testing. Strangely tho I had Heatcreep with this setup but I’ve made the mistake by changing the nozzle size to 0.6 too (went bad- wanted to get something out of the new Cura slicer engine). I will compare the temps with a thermal camera as soon as I got time!
Just order mine. I was about to put it up in the forum, but I saw y’all already did. Any update on testing?