Carbide Create and Snapmaker2

Snapmaker 2.0
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@jepho - Sorry for the delay. I’ve had your post open for almost a week now, because I wanted to set aside time to really understand all the issues you raised, since you clearly put a lot of time and energy into trying to make things work.

I haven’t been nearly as active as you, and contributions like yours are what make this a useful forum. Of course, I agree with your assessment - SnapMaker is not a responsive company. The recent holiday is actually a great example: I mean, no company elsewhere in the world would shut down the entire company and go completely dark. Startup or no, that’s just now how business is done. Yet over the last week, I’ve seen countless posts where frustrated and angry newcomers come in asking for help, and are told by well-meaning CUSTOMERS (not staff!) that it’s a national holiday in China, and that they work 8 hours ahead, so it will take a day to get a response.

The reality is, you’re not likely to get a response, period. Ever. At least not from staff. It seems you have to raise the threat of legal action before you finally get them to acknowledge and respond, or complain so loudly that they finally must take notice and engage with the conversation.

It’s funny you talked about a ‘free ebook’ by another community member in another forum. I’m actually working on what I think needs to be the SM “Second User Manual” - with all the errata from the book fixed, tips and tricks for NOT gouging your print bed, workarounds for quirks in the software, etc. So hopefully, some day we too will have the “Must Read” guide that takes you past the “Hello World” projects that they put in the user guide.

I posted long ago (back in February) asking for the Snapmaker official response to print head gouging? They have yet to really provide one, and are certainly not treating it as a systemic problem.

I’ve been nervous to even use the 3D printer, because gouging the bed seems to be the norm. The first time I went to level, it was off the bed. The second time, it got to the 5th spot, went off the back of the bed, and again, pushed down on it. Thankfully, since I had seen SO many issues, I was always standing right by the power switch when leveling, printing the first layer, etc. So far, have avoided damaging - but I shouldn’t have to be this timid about a supposedly production-ready printer, which was designed and built by a company that has already done this with SM1. (A BIG part of my reason to go with SM vs. others was because they had already released a product, had a thriving community, and were supposedly going to open source Luban. As a software engineer, I was eager to be able to customize - and even improve for everyone - the tools. Alas, that has not panned out either.)

In the end, SM is falling into a bit of a bland bucket - the company is all but useless on support, the community is where it’s at, and basically it’s a machine for hackers who are willing to spend a lot of time and energy futzing and fiddling. Personally, I’m OK with that, and I enjoy the learning. But I have no illusions that I’m doing this alone.

So many people have expressed their intense frustration, and yet nothing changes, so I think it’s important for people to know what they’re getting into. Like you said, the sales team knows how to put together a slick campaign, but the production team is understaffed, underfunded, and underperforming. It’s a serious crisis of confidence they’ve got on their hands. Frankly, I’ve had several friends ooh and ahh at the machine, and I’ve told them to hold off on getting one until I’ve put it through its paces and see how the company responds. This is actively costing them sales, but they don’t seem to care.

This is why it’s so particularly painful to see strong contributors like you leave. The company isn’t holding up the bargain, but if we all help each other, maybe we can all get some enjoyment out of our machines. Like I said, you’ll be missed.

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I don’t want to gainsay the veterans here, but wow, I wonder if I just got lucky with the unit I received or I just haven’t chosen a project yet where the SM2 doesn’t work reasonably well. Even with my clueless newbieness I’ve managed (with significant help) to do everything I’ve attempted (3D printing, laser engraving, and CNC milling) without damaging the hardware (aside from a couple of the CNC bits, it’s almost criminal that the firmware doesn’t have an emergency stop button).

The Luban software is ludicrously lacking, especially given the time that they’ve had to pull it together but there are alternatives that work reasonably well (though Fusion 360 has to have one of the most seriously non-intuitive interfaces… honestly, I’m an engineer and I’ve done 3D modeling at various times for over 30 years and used other products by Autodesk and other vendors that didn’t offer nearly such a painful user experience) and thanks to the active community here I’ve been able to find out what those alternatives are and how to use them.

I guess all I’m really trying to say is that I hope I didn’t get here just in time to watch this all go away.

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Hello Aaron, it’s nice to see you again. You have absolutely no need to apologise to me… you have not done anything wrong. I had considered my position on the forum when I first joined and saw so many complaints that I began to wonder if I had made the right choice. My reasoning about my own contributions was this… that taking part and being active was a better way to bring about change than complaining about everything that was wrong/dumb or worse… for me to descend into just offering hypercritical abuse. It can be really easy to bring heat to a situation when one gets disappointed or fed up and I felt it was vital to bring light rather than heat.

What I have found especially difficult is the almost complete lack of engagement from the Snapmaker staff. The hiding behind English sounding names has really pulled my chain because it underlines this feeling that there was another layer of fog which had been inserted to keep the customers away from the staff. For example… @parachvte is in reality Chen Zheyong. I don’t know why the depersonalised name is used when he/she has a perfectly good family name and given name to use. For me this crazy name game just increases my sense that I am somehow dealing with fantasy people. It has been that way from my journey’s beginning with SM1. Shop staff 9my supplier) who were always unavailable and when they gave you a name (that never responded) it was just more of this secret service nonsense.

I believe that not facing an issue when it arises tends to make the issue far worse than it would have been, if it had it been attended to appropriately at the start. I suspect that some of what has happened to SM users may be put down to cultural (mis)perceptions, which team Snapmaker have been unwilling to address in the manner that is common to western business practices. In the first instance, as a customer, I expect to get what I paid for. The lack of truth surrounding Luban is incredible. The software is a major stumbling block and could have been written by someone just starting a career in computer programming.

Now that Fusion 360 is pulling the plug on some aspects of free use, the Snapmaker team will not be able to hide their own software failings by pointing users to Fusion 360. The CNC aspect of the machine software is so poor that it is clear that the principles of machine control which are fundamental to cartesian coordinate location have not been understood, let alone obeyed. Lightburn shows what the laser control ought to have been. Carbide Create, Carbide Motion and Meshcam demonstrate what the CNC aspect of Snapamaker should have encompassed and included. The 3D print aspect is not an area with which I am familiar but even I, as a non 3D print user, know that a print nozzle gouging shapes into the heated bed is wrong and it is so very clearly a manufacturer’s rather than a user’s issue.

The hardware is, by and large very well designed and executed. MySM1 is just a fancy doorstop if I want to use the CNC function. The CNC aspect was why I had bought the machine in the first place. The laser function is just usable but lacking in power and poorly implemented. The image handling in Luban is a joke that is in very poor taste. The lack of commitment to the user base is evident in poorly documented features and sales video presentations passed off as tuition videos. Topping it off has been the ridiculous radio silence from any company staff members for the last number of weeks.

My reason for wanting and getting a larger machine was to be able to achieve more and take on real projects, which SM1 is not designed to cope with. The build area of 90mm square is too small to be of any practical use. My new machine is the smallest model in the Carbide 3D Shapeoko 3 range and it offers me a build area of 406.4mm (16 inches) square. True 3D carving is what I most wanted to do and the machine is completely capable of that task. I have added a JTech 4.2W laser as well, which integrates nicely and can be easily applied and removed with a well designed magnetic mount. It also speaks to Lightburn really well because the hardware developer bothered to find the best software developer for laser work and they worked together to produce an outstanding package.

Snapmaker lost this sale to me (which should have been an A250 at least) by being completely unresponsive to every issue I have raised concerning Luban. I have spent around $2500 on my new Shapeoko 3 CNC machine, JTech laser, Trend router tooling and accommodating the new machine by making a new support structure for it. The support I have had pre-sale and now on the Carbide 3D forum has been outstanding. I wont say that there are no issues with the Shapeoko machines but when you see that the Carbide 3D staff are immediately on the case, you can feel confident that any issues will be resolved.

They also have a users gallery that demonstrates what people have achieved and it is awe- inspiring. One guy has machined aluminium parts for a car customisation business. That work is truly unbelievable and it shows that I have at the very least picked the right machine. Clamps were a real issue for me with SM1 and SM2 may also have clamp issues. I received my clamps that go into a threaded wasteboard. There is a choice to buy aluminium or stainless steel and the clamps have been beautifully designed. I chose stainless steel and was surprised to find that they take M6 or 1/4 inch bolts. I found out this fact because there were both sets of bolts of different lengths supplied with the clamps, along with the grub screws. The images are self explanatory and tell a much better story than I do…

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I have come to the end of my hoping that team Snapmaker would start showing some commitment to their users. My sad conclusion is that they wont and so they don’t get any more of my money. I am writing off my previous expenditure with them and waving them goodbye. i hope all goes well for you Aaron and that you get what you need from your SM2.

Jeff

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Hello ,

The hiding behind English sounding names has really pulled my chain because

I’m not defending anyone here, and it is a bit of topic but I feel the need to react to this. You make that sound very negative (and I understand where you are coming from, I have read a lot of your posts and appreciate some of your very valuable insights and info). However. This is a very common practice and is not “hiding”.

“rewriting” a Chinese name in English characters is already a translation, and for easier interaction, Chinese people often choose a “western” name for easier communication. So it’s more to adapt and certainly not to hide. The other way around, if you as a Westerner go to China to work there, you also have to choose a Chinese name (in Chinese characters).
That isn’t hiding either, it’s just needed for legal reasons.

I just wanted to point out that for some of your grievances, there may also be cultural differences that makes you, or the snapmaker team interpret them differently. (I’m deliberately not valuing them myself, just pointing out there cultural are differences that might result in misinterpreting each others reactions).

(And yes I’m personally also very frustrated I did not yet receive my snapmaker; preorder from February)

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Hello, Thanks for your insight. I hear you but I have had a long think about where my frustrations lie. It may be a cultural thing but not answering the customers doesn’t fly with me. I have had instances, when I first purchased from the agent in the UK, where names that were given to me did not relate to real people, and then subsequently no one can remember the person or even knows which person you were dealing with.

I don’t have any problem pronouncing names of people, having lived and worked in around 30 different countries. Maybe the westernisation/substitution of names is done to make it easier for us dumb westerners. It feels insulting to my mind if that is the motivation but it also conveniently means that you never actually know with whom you are dealing. I find that tedious at best and potentially; it is a deliberate sharp practice when it is used in business.

There may well be some sort of legal stance to adopt, under Chinese laws, but I see nothing wrong with respectfully expecting that when people are in Rome, they do things like the Romans do. Part of the long communication chain appears to be that there are no centres for Snapmaker customers to go to. If the operation is based exclusively in China, then it is setting itself up to fail.

This recent extended holiday that I did not know about and had to learn about from another customer, rather than a staff member, is unacceptable especially where people have invested money in the company. At the very least they should have their merchandise or an explanation (as a minimum) from a company executive as to when they may expect to receive it. This radio silence is highly damaging to a company and Snapmaker corporation should understand that if they are dealing with western people (and we are to be the main customer base) then the company should get with the program and start accepting that we too have cultural sensibilities.

I really liked the hardware but the Luban software lets it down rather badly. With no responses other than excuses for the software and how it is all going to be wonderful, and then seeing all of the complaints in the forums that are similar, it appears to me that Snapmaker are a company in decline. They have had my purchase money and my time and I waited to see if things change or there is a straight commitment to service all of the customers needs where known problems exist. Whatever the reason for this lack of interest in customers, I don’t find it acceptable conduct. Public holiday? In the west some of us work during public holidays. What would you think of me as a healthcare professional if I and my colleagues went on holiday at the same time for several weeks?

There appears (to me) to be some inexplicable difference between us as people. (the ugly side of cultural differences again?) I don’t find it helpful in the least to have no clue as to the real identity of the people with whom I am dealing. I put my investment with a new CNC company and spent my money with them. In two days on their forum I have now had a conversation with a least 5 of the company employees. That gives me great confidence that they will be on top of any issue that I raise.

I am sorry if you gathered that I am in some way or another anti-Chinese. It is untrue. I have no interest in skin colour/religion/nationality or any other factor which sometimes divides opinions. I treat everyone the same regardless of their place of birth or native language.

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To be clear, I’m not saying I disagree with you :slight_smile:, nor suggesting that you mean something else at all. I just wanted to provide some additional context that sometimes easily gets lost. (The company I work for has a subsidiary in China and it’s sometimes interesting to see the differences)

That being said, I agree that things could be a lot better, setting an out of office or banner on the forum “out on holiday” isn’t a big deal etc. A lot of expectations have been created and are not being matched. I feel personally almost sure that I will be disappointed when I finally do get my unit after reading everything on this forum.

For now I am just hoping that there are also a lot of happy users out there we don’t see because they don’t post as much :wink:

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Yea, from one staff member: image
Like, you’re already on here, even like 1 short post a day. 2 full weeks of radio silence is crazy.

@brvdboss, There are many people having problems and not receiving solutions from support, but there’s also many of us who are quite happy. Out of the box, no calibration or tuning I was able to get a 3DBenchy printed, and quite well at that.

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In my opinion you should use it as much as you can this first year. Just to make sure that any problems that you have with the hardware can be found and resolved (however slowly) before it is out of its warranty period.

I made the same decision, I had posted several very disgruntled comments on Kickstart after receiving my machine but decided that it doesn’t help anybody. And its not like SM will refund me because I am dissatisfied, so better to contribute and try to make it better.

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Thanks for that clarification Bruno. I guess my perception is that there has been a declining staff presence in these forums for several months. The same complaints and questions and the same issues keep cropping up post after post. I don’t think it is because the hardware is poor, in fact it seems to be better constructed than many of the machines purporting to be CNC/3D Printers which are on sale and have their origins in China.

The Luban software is truly execrable and this is what is supposedly driving the excellent hardware. I have written about it gently and at length in many posts and there are never any formal Snapmaker company responses other than an occasional thanks for the critique, it will be passed on to the team. In one communication I was told that a certain staff member would be in touch with me to discuss the issues with Luban and my criticisms. No-one has ever got in touch with me. I feel now that the team strategy has been to run away from a team Snapmaker induced problem and pretend that it does not exist.

Any person could look at the multifarious forum reports of faults (that may be hardware but frequently are not) and see that they involve the software, where the poor users attempt to use Luban for any sort of functional outcome. Where the faults such as bed gouging are reported many times, it should be obvious that these are Snapmaker induced faults rather than user faults. The bed gouging began on SM1 more than 3 years ago! It remains a distressing issue that has not been addressed.

That is one side of the coin… the other side of the coin is people waiting to receive their hardware and getting no responses from their customer support contacts. Why not? The question should be simple to answer… I have a customer support enquiry and made it to the contact address…nothing! If team Snapmaker are running into difficulties now, it is because they have failed to plan for runaway success in hardware sales. What has happened to the money that was raised and gathered on Kickstarter? Almost $7 million from two record breaking campaigns. You may remember David Chen boasting this headline… “How We Raised $1 Million in 7 Minutes on Kickstarter”, which was published on the Snapmaker blog on 18th july 2019.

It is also because team Snapmaker appear to have no real idea of what to do with customers who have paid their money and have had their expectations raised. The management of expectations is not undertaken at all. My own situation arose because of the abject failure to acknowledge that when you say things to customers and then don’t follow that up, the customer loses confidence in the company.

It is a bit idle of me because I no longer have a dog in this fight, Bruno, but I sincerely do hope that you are one of the customers who does not have to write to this forum with issues concerning the reception or use of your machine.

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Blockquote
In my opinion you should use it as much as you can this first year.

Great point - I totally agree. I just meant that for that first year, I’m also being exceptionally cautious so that I don’t make mistakes while I learn the subtleties of the machine. Even going as slowly as I can, I’ve run into a few issues. Thankfully no bed gouging, but haven’t had a successful 3D print yet. (I’ve switched to CNC for now as my focus.)

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As long as the majority is getting used. I’d just hate to hear that your linear rails, or PS went out 2 months out of warranty because of a manufacturer defect. Everyone hates that! :slight_smile:
I personally can’t wait to start using the cnc and laser engraver more. I’m thinking I might need to try my hand at a custom cribbage board. Seen one posted on here and it sounds like the perfect learning project and it would make a great gift for my father in law.

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That would be my cribbage board project :slight_smile:
It’s been a good learning experience, I’ve figured out how use a ball mill for the lines, a flat mill for the holes, the v-bit to put a bevel on the edge of board and the laser to engrave it a bit. Once I manage to put all that together I’m going to work on learning how to rough out a deck holder which should be interesting.
Another thing I’ve learned is that it’s a good idea to have a lot scrap wood on hand when learning how to use the CNC. :smiley:

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Lol yes scrap is always good! Keep me updated on how that is going. I’d love to know they carve those little compartments for the pegs.

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