2W laser first test: PCB does work (with restrictions & slow...)!

Just received my 2W IR laser, as promised mid-July, so very happy! Setup is straightforward. For those who found the pages of Snapmaker confusing, regarding if you need the QSK adapter plate or not (I found them confusing…): You do not need it, the profile on the laser’s back is ready for the Snapmaker 2.0 QSK. I like that!

Focusing with the focus lever is totally straightforward: simple, but effective. My anxiety is that the lever might get lose, bump on the workpiece and get tangled - but that is me, just seeing the bad things :slight_smile: I suppose if that was an issue, we would have heard of similar problems with the 20/40W lasers, that use the same method.

Work origin with crosshairs is very easy, nice. Not yet checked how precise it aligns with the actual laser, but I guess it will be sufficient.

After scorching some wood as a first test, I jumped directly at PCB board, because that’s what I hope I’ll use the 2W thing most for. First surprise: The laser is not completely invisible - obviously the side-waves reach into the visible spectrum. or it’s the evaporating, hot material, not sure.

I yet did not have full success with PCB. The laser is certainly able to get the copper away, but somehow it does not achieve full isolation. Right after the laser process, there is close to 0 Ohm between the two sides of an isolation line, i.e. no isolation at all. After polishing the copper and laser-cut a bit, resistance goes up to ~10-100 Ohms - still not good. If I then use a knife to trace the isolation routes and scratch out all the soot from the PCB base plate, I finally get to full isolation, but that’s not a feasible process for a larger PCB. My guess is that the soot is conductive (carbon is). So I’ll need to try more parameter sets in the sense of speed & passes. My first tries were going very slow (10-25 mm/min!), but this seems to damage the PCB carrier material too much. Going at 200 mm/min on the other hand is not ablating the copper efficiently. So, still parameters need to be worked out, but I guess I’ll get there eventually. What is already clear is: It will not be a fast process to laser-etch a PCB.

@Zoe @Jade will you share best practice values for PCB isolation routing at some point? It seems a really tedious process to work it out, and I guess help would be appreciated!

What certainly is remarkable is how unbelievable fine the focus is! The lines are sooo thin, and when I set the line spacing too high, I had very tiny strands of copper remaining between the burnt away copper. From the Lightburn numbers, I’d say the laser cut lines are less than 0.1 mm, perhaps even less than 0.05 mm. I guess this device will be able to engrave ubelievably intricate patterns!

So first impression is good, especially the tiny focus is promising!

Here are photos of my first tries (sorry for the typos - did not properly control the image before upload…):

The underside shows how the heat damages the carrier material when going slow (10-25 mm/min):

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In video that I saw from laser PCB etching, they have a horizontal pass and a vertical pass. Maybe that loose the problems with the isolation.

I don’t have the IR laser yet (half August :)). I don’t think it to use for PCB etching. I order my double sided (or 4 layer) PCB from JLCPCB.

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I also have seen the cross-hatched laser etching video - two differences: A galvo-laser, and more power! I guess the cross-hatching is the right method if you want to remove a lot of copper, and I would go down that route if I had more power at my hands, but with the 2W thingy I’ll be glad if I can get the “must have” parts away - like if I was doing it with CNC milling.

Well, yesterday I was hunting for a quick success - I guess I’ll do it more systematically the next days, running test patterns with speed/passes combinations.

Getting your PCB from JLCPCB is most likely the more clever way - better results, silk screen etc… and for the price of the 2W you can order quite a few PCBs :slight_smile: They are so darn cheap… It is more my personal motivation and a potentially very special use case that makes me try PCB with the 2W.

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Getting mine delivered tomorrow or the day after. I’ll have some time to play with it so I’ll definitely give this a try too and report back!

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OK, I ran a test pattern file, using Lightburn’s Offset fill with 0.02mm line spacing to laser 0.5 x 10mm lines into the PCB board. The pattern is:

  • 200 mm/min, 1-10 passes
  • 150 mm/min, 1-8 passes
  • 100 mm/min 1-5 passes
  • 50 mm/min, 1-3 passes

To me, 150 mm/min 4 passes gives the best result, and I’ll try the isolation test with that one soon.

Here are the photos:

If you open the polished image in 100% view, and look at the 150 mm/s 2 and 3 passes line, you can in the middle see an incredibly thin line of copper. Now remember that the line spacing of the laser lines is 0.02 mm! This shows how incredibly fine the laser focus point is!

EDIT: Just realized that when looking at an angle you can better see where the copper is gone, and where it still has some thickness:

EDIT EDIT: I guess I’ll do a bit more testing - mainly going even faster and more passes. Remebering the video that @buckfast_beekeeper mentions, they also do many fast passes, which I guess may limit the thermal stress to the carrier material. And it is obvious that this gets scorched by the process.

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Hi @Hauke

Thank you for your feedback. I’ve relayed it internally. If we decide to share more information later, I’ll update it here as well. :slightly_smiling_face:

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Hi.

The resistance you measure after isolation is most likely the carbon formed by the burnt fiberglass substrate “connecting” the two areas.

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Yeah, that’s my assumption also.

And that’s why I now am going down the road: Fast laser movement, many passes - and that seems to be better, the substrate not getting that burnt. I now achieved ~1 Megaohm by going 2000 mm/min, 50 passes, and I guess 45 passes would have been enough. So slowly getting there… hopefully.

Of course it may also depend on the substrate - I am not 100% sure, but I’d guess the scrap piece I’m currently burning down is epoxy based, and I’d have thought that this should be somewhat laser resistant. I’m surprised how much it chars. Perhaps it is paper based after all?

So I’ll try a bit more with the fast-and-many approach, and I’ve already rummaged through my drawer and found one PCB made of hard paper, and one where I’m 100% sure it is epoxy - these will also suffer the next days :slight_smile:

You can see: I’m motivated :slight_smile:

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My 2W laser arrived. First thing I noticed is that it cannot be installed with the bracing kit in place on the X-axis, even though it claims to be compatible on the store page:

It also sounds like the fan is blocked/catching on something. I’ll have to get that resolved before I can use it safely.

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Update: Snapmaker support confirmed the noise is normal (for now) and will be resolved in an upcoming firmware update (PWM/duty cycle related I suppose).

@Hauke: after lasering, how do you polish the surface? Do you use anything copper specific?

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If it helps, here’s results on aluminum. Tea candle bottom.


100mm/m, 100% power, 5 passes. Didn’t seem to go through until I poked it and it fell right out so wax probably held it up, so no idea how much it actually took. 0.05mm thick.

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Success!

After trying to coax a working set of laser parameters out for my epoxy based PCB board, I finally gave up and decided to try the yet best settings on my hard paper based PCB. And it worked immediately, it just does not build up any soot, I do not even need to clean/polish after lasering! So I am now running a new testing series to get to the most practicable settings, as my yet best settings are very slow. PCB isolation routing will certainly not be a fast affair after all, but I guess I can still optimize things. Will keep you posted!

There are three good things about hard paper PCB working: A) it does not stink so strongly when being lasered (I still recommend ventilation), B) it is much easier to drill for through hole components, and C) it i cheaper!

Admittedly, my intuition told me the opposite - I would have expected the hard paper to get sooty fast, and the epoxy to be resistant to the laser to some extent. But reading about IR lasers, they are obviously not so strong on organic material, but excellent for plastic of any kind - so I may have expected it after all. Whatever, I’m really happy now!

What I now can also say with confidence that the focal point of my 2W laser is extremely fine, somewhere in the 0.02 mm region. I know this because I played around with line spacings, and 0.03 mm line spacing already leaves thin lines of copper inbetween. As a result I played around with slightly defocusing the laser, and I guess for some applications this might be recommendable.

Another learning: I loved the autofocus of the 10W - I guess partly because of its nice idea and engineering - but now having the focus lever, I guess it was overkill after all. Focus lever is so simple and easy to use, and also relatively fast - totally enough.

Then I left some things above unanswered:

Actually not - I just use a old scratch sponge (what you usually use for cleaning dishes from burnt in stains). Maybe using some chemistry would also get away the soot from the epoxy based PCB - but I was not yet at the point of trying.

I have the old Kickstarter SM 2 - this is so loud that I never realised that I had the same sound when idle. I can say that my 2W now has 20-30 hours of duty time on its clock, and I have no issues, despite having the same sound. When it is under full power, the fan sounds just right. And as you mentioned, it is now firmware fixed.

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Thanks for the great information. So far I’ve just measured the general material thickness and slapped that into Luban. Sounds like I need to actually use the lever. I think the A-B positioning is actually really nice. However, if it could be done from the HMI instead of Luban it would drastically improve my workflow.

For now I only have epoxy based PCB boards, so I may have to get some hard paper based ones instead.

Again, thanks for your work so far! Hope Snapmaker will weigh in too as they have marketed the laser for PCB isolation routing.

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Maybe give my guide, along with drag/drop files a try? My workflow is pretty much just turn on the snapmaker and do a first homing (either via wireless Luban or from the screen). Then I’ll mount my workpiece in the lower left corner, pop open Lightburn, and do a non-output layer drawing of my workpiece. This lets me perfectly line up anything I want, input the thickness, export gcode, and drop that gcode file onto the uploader and off it goes automatically.

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…which I think is absolutely fine! Accuracy might be a tad less good, but there’s a lot room for tolerances. When I did tests with slightly defocusing the 2W laser to get a broader beam, effects only kicked in when I defocused 2mm+.

Adding to my points A, B and C above regarding the advantages of hard paper (phenolic paper) based PCBs, here’s D): Epoxy based PCB can - depending on the excat nature of the epoxy - emit very nasty chemicals when lasered, while phenolic paper seems relatively safe, the most hazardous component emitted seemingly being formaldehyde. So, ventilation is a must, but I guess I’ll stick to phenolic paper based PCB after all.

Should have done this research before I started my experiments :slight_smile:

…and, just out of curiosity, I’ll do a last test with a different brand of epoxy based PCB.

OK, test run finished. For my 35µm copper layer, phenolic paper PCB the sweet spot is 500 mm/min, 15 passes, 0.02mm line spacing… Going slower with less passes causes soot/charring and is not good. Faster and more passes is OK, but I consider less passes as more efficient.

My second Epoxy PCB was no good - so epoxy-based is out for me.

This is painfully slow in the end… the effective speed is ~30 mm/min, and if you want to have 0.2 mm isolation width (which is not much), you’re down another factor of 10, i.e. 3 mm/min effective isolation routing…

Whatever, my next step will be to do a real PCB circuit, and see how fast it is in the end. I guess I’ll create a new thread then, also going through my workflow.

happy and not happy at the same time :slight_smile:

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Isn’t it possible to engrave only isolation and let the great polygon

@Hauke can you share where you get this type of PCB board? The ones I have are epoxy/glass-fibre. I did some isolation attempts and the fumes are bad, plus it does not work at all…

I’m 99% sure that the one I have is either from Conrad (https://www.conrad.com) or Reichelt (https://www.reichelt.de), but both currently do not list them. I found stuff at Pollin: Platine Kupferplatte 160x100 mm Hartpapier | 442513 - All three are German dealers.
Looking more international, on Amazon I indeed have difficulties to find anything - I’m a bit shocked: Are these PCBs going out of fashion?
Things you might run extended searches for might be FR-1, FR-2 or FR-3 PCBs - these are typically made from hard paper/phenolic paper.

Huh, I guess when I find some, I’ll buy a few to have them on stock…