SnapMaker is killing this product, by overpricing parts and upgrades

@jabian I couldn’t agree more.

Is the machine expensive, yes if you compare it with a 250 dollar Ender or a chinese mini cnc machine from aliexpress etc. (which becomes more expensive when the import taxes are being added)

Does the 3-in-1 approach come with concessions, definitely, but it also has a lot of advantages size-wise and ease of use.

I actually made a comparison for myself when I initially purchased the SM2 for 3 different machines, but I came to a higher budget than the A350 when I had similar worksizes. And if you was making the investment for a specialized machine I wouldn’t be satisfied with the performance of the SM2, because of the concessions you make with a 3-in-1. But I would have spent significantly more on 3 different machines.

For me this is an entry in 3 different domains I didn’t have experience with before and a very fun one actually. So far definitely worth the expense for me personally.

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The fact of the matter is that Snapmaker still continues to hype their product, but does little to address long standing issues. That is not quality, that is crap. Most of us have had, and many still have, a remarkable patience, but time is running out. We have forgiven them for shipping an unfinished product, but also expected them to fix their issues. Instead of fixing the issues, they expect us to pay a premium price again for an improved part. If stating the obvious is felt to be “extremely negative” then the product must be extremely negative, as the only thing I have stated are facts. You didn’t address those?

How many of those who make amazing and inspiring things, does it with Luban? Having to use competitors software is not an endorsement for high quality, is it? It could be forgiven if they stated that up front or really tried to develop and improve, but the cnc part is still an alpha version one year in. This is totally unacceptable when they stated since the beginning that their software has it all. They’ve added support for the rotary (that few seems to afford), but otherwise features are scarce. Last upgrade I looked at had messed up the user interface making it worse. Maybe it looked more modern to some, but features had disappeared and simple settings were hidden one layer deeper. Not an improvement.

I should have read through these forums. I hope other potential customers are smarter so they can make an informed decision before choosing where to spend their money. I hope someone finds this useful too, when considering ups and down. And no, I’m not going to pretend to be happy when I am deeply disappointed.

I really hope they put in some effort into making the machine work as promised and then we can see. As it is right now it mostly collects dust. I can’t really sell it without a bad conscience. I could give it away, but that would be a serious write off.

And finally, it is the same below par quality that you can expect from that particular country. I can also blame myself, I should have known. If that makes them feel hurt, they need to look in the mirror. I have quality products made in Germany/US/Japan/rest of Europe/pretty much the rest of the world, that does what it says. Some of them made ages ago and still working as intended. Micro vawe from -95, made in Japan, coffee machine made in Holland ages ago, power tools made in Germany in the eighties… A lot of stuff repalce after a decade or so because I wanted new stuff, not because it broke. But chinese products that have lasted more than a couple of months or years? Can’t really think of anything. I’m starting to be afraid that snapmaker won’t be any different and it didn’t even work as expected when new! Try to make a positive spin of that.

How many other printers, cnc machines or printers actually use their own software? The majority actually rely on cura, Fusion, Lightburn etc. Luban is intended as an easy to start solution for all three functions and that’s indeed what it does. Can it be better, definitely. Am I still using it myself, no. Is that a problem, not really.

btw, you do know that your beloved apple products are actually made by Foxconn, in factories in China…

The product definitely isn’t perfect. I’m sorry to hear it isn’t the perfect product for you. But for some it definitely can be good solution. But you need to be aware of the capabilities & limitations.

Maybe that is something we can agree on.

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I don’t know. I use Prusa’s slicer, a thank you to them for giving it away for free. Good software usually has a price, sometimes quite steep, so you need to take that into account. But they stated boldly that the included software takes care of it all. Had it done that, then the price would have been OK. But it doesn’t and they haven’t done anything about it.

And no, I don’t have apple products. But those who use them are always happy, so I assume they don’t struggle too much with them. My point was that snapmaker has become worse than apple, which is old tech in a nice package at 10x the reasonable price. I know they are made in China and I also know that nobody uses a three year old iPhone. Myself I use a PC + 27" screen for internet and a two meter screen for sports/movies. For talking I use an old Nokia (not made in china). I can imagine what you all think, but the battery still outlasts my family’s touch toys, it hasn’t broken despite countless falls to the ground, the sound is excellent and it fits in a pocket. And I don’t need a user account nor agree to anyones license rules to use it.

I was replying to your previous comment, when I saw this, but I’ll answer here instead. I purchased my A250 for the same reasons, believing I could do a little this and that with it. I’m not comparing it to a cheap Ender. The A250 was 1500€ without enclosure (not available at the time) + shipping. Add new rails, new print head and new laser, and possibly enclosure and air purifier and we are up to double. While some consessions were expected (and I’m not complaining about those), it should also be more cost efficient than three separate machines, considering you use the same set of rails, controllers, power unit, etc.

Now, for the amount of money we are talking here, you can get a good 3d printer (e.g. Prusa i3 MK3S for 770€, made in Czech), a more useable laser (e.g. one mentioned in another thread) and a larger and stronger cnc (e.g. STEPCRAFT-2/D.420, 939€ made in Germany). There is still money left for accessories and now you have a lot more creative options than Snapmaker has. Maybe there are better options as well, these came up with a simple search.

Yes, they require more room, but can also be used at the same time if you need stuff done. If you have limited room, then you appreciate the all in one option, but you need to be aware of what you get. Unfortunately not close to what they promise.

I do regret that I took this path, which is a dead end already. I too was lured by the slick marketing and inspired by all the promises of an upgradable machine you can grow with. But I expected additional features for additional price. Not additional purchases to make the original work decently. Had it worked as promised, or they tried to fix the issues, I would be happy. Had I known that I need to cough up another 1500€ to get the basics to work properly, I would have gone the other route.

Well, at least I was reminded that early adopters always pay a price and wise people wait to see how it plays out. Stupid me for being too carried away.

We can agree or disagree and still be friends. Everybody is in a different situation, different needs etc. For those who still like snapmaker, I’m happy for you. But for those going through different options, these are some things to be aware of. The biggest take away is to take a deep look in the forums to see what people achieve with it and what they struggle with. But don’t for one second believe the fancy markenting.

To be fair, it’s a fork of Slic3r, so their version started from an existing open source product as well. Actually Luban is based on Cura, unfortunately not in a very maintainable way. I would have preferred if Snapmaker would have focused on good printing profiles for existing slicers. But I understand their approach as their goal seemed to be to be able to offer everything you need to get started.

I’ll have to disagree with that from experience. But that doesn’t matter. You’re using these type of vague examples based on emotional gut feeling to get your point across and it just undermines your (valid) arguments. Which is a shame.

You don’t necessarily need all those. I won’t buy the new modules because the old ones just work fine and I don’t care about the noise. Enclosure I made myself and the air purifier… Well, not very enthusiastic about it.
Personally I have the 350 and (bought at pre-order price that was ok for me. I deliberately waited until some kickstarter orders were fulfilled and feedback was coming in)

Did you actually try to put everything in your shopping basket that you need just to get started? That price doesn’t include the router or milling motor as they call it. So add another 500EUR to that price. They actually have a laser and printer head too. Both around 500eur or more. And the laser is 3W btw. So more expensive than the 10W version of Snapmaker. Which one is better in real life? Don’t know. Oh, and that was without the software…

I really don’t think that’s true.

You don’t need the new rails. They never lied about the laser power either and they offer a nice build volume for the price.
Again, could it have been better, yes. Are there some design choices that were really not the best. Most probably yes.

That’s true for every product. Being critical about the marketing as well. But if you look hard enough, you will find problems with every product on every user forum.

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Indeed when I was considering backing SM2, I did quite a tour through the internet for other 3-in-1s, and also looked at the Stepcraft. I can confirm: If you get all you need, you’re way above SM2 kickstarter price, and comparable to SM2 list price. You get a stiffer, more milling-focussed machine, that on the other hand is slower, has a smaller work volume (height), but potentially larger work area. The machine would be more thought-through - typical German engineering with its advantages and disadvantages, but very much closed hardwrae and software. And it’s ugly :slight_smile:

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Stepcraft base model uses a dremel tool for spindle. Doubtful that it’s actually any more powerful than the SM spindle. And would only hold an 1/8" bit.

I’m okay with what I spent as a KS backer and the product has fulfilled what I’ve needed. Between making some stuff and selling it and creating and printing some repair parts for some stuff (especially parts that were out of stock/no longer available) it’s more than paid for itself. It’s given me a good chance to learn what I like to do and how to do stuff and what to look for in my future purchases. If the software had been better I probably wouldn’t have learned as much.
The 2 big problems I have with SM and why I’m not getting any new modules are:

  1. Lack of support/presence on FB and forum and no response to customer needs/suggestions/wants. I don’t feel like they’re responding to any real needs. A smart company would take advantage of people like @brent113 and @brvdboss and @eh9 (among many others). Instead we lost people like @Atom and haven’t seen @MooseJuice in a while. Also don’t feel like we ever get any real answers from them.
  2. Luban still as buggy as ever. All the improvement really haven’t been improvements or fixes as much as just changes. And they could easily just provide more support for Lightburn and Fusion and Cura. Let luban be super basic and for beginners. Then if you need more use the others. That’s what Xtool is doing. They have laserbox software and then they’re working really hard to teach people to use Lightburn and provide template/prefs for it.

One of the big problems is that SM wants and tries to sell it as super easy and simple and everything is ready to go. And that’s just not the case and may never be with 3d printing. There are a number of calibration things that you need to do with any 3d printer to get it dialed in. If they would just be honest about that and make that part of the instructions and setup they’d have a lot less disappointed and disillusioned customers.

I don’t necessarily think the add-ons are over-priced, but they are on upper end of what I’d be willing to pay. I think they should be giving early backers a discount. I think it’s short sighted not to.

-S

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Good points and well written.

I have been relatively satisfied with the 3d printer, it works with many materials and the results are useable, although I don’t have other printers to compare. I’ve been able to create unavailable spare parts and relatively complex customized items. Have only had failed prints with more challenging designs or warping materials, but been mostly able to get the jobs done with some learning.

On the other hand, If printing is the only thing I can do with it, then there would have been smarter options for what I do. Unfortunately I bought it mainly for the laser and CNC. But what really got me over the edge, is the z-offset lottery introduced with a bad firmware upgrade, which they have not fixed and there is no indication if it ever will be. This made 3d printing unusable too. After a totally random digging into the printsheet and destroying it, I’m now waiting for the ordered replacement to arrive. Instead of using I now have plenty of time to write to forums, which I never did before…

Anyway, I’m stuck with what I have, so I’m not going to debating this any further. It is what it is. But I have a question to all of you who have more experience. Have any of you tried to downgrade the firmware to an older working version? Can it safely be done or will it mess things up even worse? I’m on the latest, meaning I’ve also upgraded the firmware for the tools. As it is now, I really can’t use 3d printing either.

Thanks to all of you for your opinions and a good discussion.

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I think that really captures my reaction to the SM2. I was not in the market for a 3-in-one machine, but for a 3D printer with a large build volume. I had basically narrowed it down to the Snapmaker and the CR-10, and justified the SM2 purchase because if I could get something that didn’t require a lot of fiddling, other members of the household could learn to use it (fat chance of that now!). The 2 other functions were a nice bonus, and the CAN bus really sealed the deal (though it wouldn’t have, if I had known about the proprietary cables).

So while the problems I am having with the SM2 are by and large problems I would be having with any 3D printer, I still am left with the feeling that I didn’t get what I paid for.

But hey, winter is here, I’ll have plenty of downstairs time (where the woodstove and the A350 both live) in order to modify the A350 and hopefully make it more reliable and streamline its use. As with the Sieg-style mini-lathe I stupidly bought many years ago: I didn’t intend to buy a kit, but a kit is what I ended up with.

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Actually, in 2004 and 2005 the LightScribe or LabelFlash-capable writers were able to engrave/print a label/image on your cd/dvd…

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Wow that’s a throwback. Thanks for that memory. I still have the install CD for that in my CD binder that’s collecting dust, right next to my mix tapes and Maximum PC demo CDs.

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This exactly expresses my attitude. I specifically bought SM to avoid buying a kit of parts. What I got was a kit of parts that wasn’t even complete (Y-axis mount foolishness, specifically).

I’m considering parting mine out to recoup my loss. I might think otherwise if I thought the software had a chance of serious improvement, but I’ve got no faith in the software people at SM to do even a decent job. If I’m going to write code for a machine-control project, I won’t do it for SM because I’ve got an anti-interest in it being ignored by the developer team. I’ve also considered ripping out the controller and its software entirely, but at that point I’d have to ask the question: why even keep using A350 parts? And the answer to that is “don’t”.

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Terrifyingly, the laptop whose OS I just finished updating has a Lightscribe-capable drive, although I haven’t dredged around for the software needed to make it work under recent Linux (if it still exists). I’m not about to dissasemble it to check the laser’s wattage, though. :upside_down_face:

thats brilliant, glad to hear it.

:wave:

yeah i been on break from this hunk of junk :joy:

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Yeah I built a hand held laser out of a duel layer dvd RW drive in high school. It would cut paper, melt plastic but it is nothing compared to my 10+W laser lol.

I have 4 working rails and 1 non functional. If you want them PM me and we can figure out details.

As for SM I feel like the kikstarter was a money grab. The didn’t deliver what they advertised. They said it would be reconfigurable, but as far as I know they still don’t offer support for even the H Laser configuration. They have horrible support, their use of CAN is a joke. It’s not really open-source as they promised. It’s over priced and oversold.

I am happy I sold my machine when I did, with that money I bought an ender 3(used $99) witch with just a couple of free mods and some tuning(but my A350 required both of thise things as well), does work as well (if not better) then my SM2 did. I also built an mpcnc (3/4hp CNC, $600) with a work area of 2ft x 2ft. X 4in. With works great, has an amazing and helpful community and is every bit what I wanted from SM. THEN I added a 10+W (2 7W diodes, $250) to that mpcnc, it was easy with the online support witch includes personalized help from the creator of the design… so for a total of $950 (that’s less then what I sold my SM2 for) I got better products with better support and couldn’t be happier. So there are other options out there.

Happy making,
~Atom.

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And your point is? I really don’t see why people feel so obligated to come on a forum they don’t support and cry about a machine they no longer own.

Ender has a community and suppot forum @Atom Your energy might be more appreciated there.

Atom happens to have helped more people get through this piece of trash than almost anyone on the forum.

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there with yah :slight_smile:

Trying to psyche myself up to work on it again. So many competing projects, I might even get the POS mini-lathe or the unreliable Multitool-belt-sander grinder mod usable before I find the patience to return to this one

First, I wanted to add my two cents as someone who has had the SM2 and since moved on to other machines to show a contrast. Many SM2 owners have not used other machines so they have no point of reference. If you see no value in my post please do scroll past it.

Second, I only looked at this forum again. (After several months) because someone who has helped me in the past (@sdj544 ) tagged me in their post. Witch sends me an email. I thought maybe he wanted my input on somthing. SInce I always was interested in and valued his opinion, I figured the least I could do is read the thread, and offer up my opinion to him.

Third, my point is that I feel like SM has been killing itself for a long time and if someone isn’t happy with the SM2 then they should sell it and look for a piece of equipment that better suits them. Because there is the right machine out there for all of us.

Lastly, I am active in the V1 forum, it is a great community, and my energy is appreciated there. Also at one time, long before you joined a month ago, I’m somewhat confident It was appreciated here. Pluss at least my post was relevant to the thread topic. Your post added nothing to the conversation and it seems to me it’s only purpose was to minimize and a valid opinion and berate a complete stranger.

@MooseJuice
Thank you for your kind words, even if they are a bit of an exaggeration. As I recall you, @brent113, @brvdboss, @Hauke and @sdj544 all helped at least as many people as I did. And you are still here helping people.

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